Well, during a recent stay in New Zealand with my family I came under a lot of pressure to attend a Sunday church service. All stops were pulled. “Do it for Mum.” “Do it for me.” Even my three year old niece was drafted in, adorned with requisite adorably innocent face, to push the guilt nail home and drag me from my warm hangover haven of a bed.
I think it was at this point that I decided a passive position on religion was an outmoded strategy. I explained to my confused niece that I disagreed with going to church but that it was okay for her to go without me. So, her first hint that there’s something fishy about going to church. Not bad for a three year old.
She had a birthday recently so I did the only right thing, I gave her a children’s book on evolution: The Tree of Life: The Wonders of Evolution. Not the easiest kind of book to find. It’s the only one I managed to unearth that conveys the wonder and excitement of evolution. I can recommend it, I just wish it was illustrated in colour.
As an agnostic my basic philosophical view with regard to theology is that I do not know how many gods there are, whether there be thousands, one or zero, and I don’t regard it as a particularly important question. My mother and I had agreed not to discuss the subject of religion at one point but, judging from my recent visit home, my heresy appears to be back on the table. So the gloves are off.
I’ve decided that the only reconcilable thing to do in order to convey my seriousness and help break the cycle is revoke my Baptism and Confirmation and encourage my friends and whanau to do the same.
What it means for my godfather status with regard to my niece I’m unsure. Traditionally godparents have been considered informally responsible for ensuring the child’s religious education is carried out and for caring for the child should he or she be orphaned. Although my sister, her husband and I are far more interested in the later the Roman Catholic Church, according to Wikipedia, requires that godparents are Confirmed, so let’s just say there could be technical difficulties.
Now, if I could just work out how to do it. Naturally I’ll keep you posted.
Note: Whanau and friends are encouraged to comment below or forever hold their peace. Let’s have this one out in the open where opinions can be recorded for posterity.
Update, 28th April, 2006: It turns out you can’t actually revoke Baptism or Confirmation. According to Wikipedia such sacraments are said to leave indelible spiritual marks on one’s being. The outcome of this is the subject of my next post. Stay tuned!
• There are problems with being agnostic, and you’ve run into one of them.
• “Don’t know” (literally: not know, the direct opposite of know) means you accept that some parts of one or more of the religions you are agnostic about, might be true, so you presumably must act in ways that won’t cause too much offence if it turns out to be true.
• Hence your concern about what happened in the past, before you became an independent person (the equal of anyone else, free to choose your own actions or inactions).
• As someone who does know I was mistaken in my earlier life, I have no such complications.
David (atheist).
Hi David, some good points, but I’m not agnostic about religion, I’m agnostic about the existence of gods, and especially the idea of a creator. I’ve always been puzzled by the atheist position. How can you possibly know?
On the other hand I’ve spent most of my life studying Christianity and the like and I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s a big steaming pile of human-created shite, used to keep people under the thumb.
• First (and less important): my atheist view of the world is based on my 60 years’ experience with the place of Occam’s Razor in science: “The minimum needed to explain something, is more likely to be correct than a more complicated explanation”. That’s my version; see Wikipedia’s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham%27s_razor , and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham
— So adding an extra layer (in this case, supernatural) is unnecessary.
• To your main quandaries: (1) your own attitude to your Baptism and Confirmation, and (2) how to describe the responsibility you have agreed to take on, which you now call: being your niece’s godfather.
Re (1):
Easy. They happened in the past, before you became an independent person (the equal of anyone else, free to choose your own actions or inactions). Everyone is constantly re-creating their own world, so simply write them out of your current world. And leave other adults free to make their own choices about their attitudes to such ceremonies.
Re (2):
Slightly more difficult since it involves someone other than yourself.
My advice is that the three of you (”my sister, her husband and I”) come to a new agreement based on you being her uncle, in which you agree to take on all the responsibilities you thought you were taking on when asked the first time. (Such as: you will be someone your niece can count on being helpful when she’s totally fed up with her parents, and her legal guardian after both parents die.)
• My general attitude is that, if it involves reasonable people, suitable arrangements can almost always be made, by negotiation.
David.
Suggest you check out this site sometime when you have the time and please let me know what you think of it
http://www.examineyourself.com
Bless ya.
Thanks Grace but I couldn’t find any instructions explaining how to revoke my Baptism and Confirmation on that website. I did find one page that seemed to be aimed at me, it said becoming a Christian was the most incredible event that ever took place in my life. I’d say that’s a fair description.
By the way here’s a website you’ll probably find just as useful as I found yours.
David, agree with your points, but coming to an arrangement with my sister won’t be a problem. The thing is I actually want to formally revoke my Confirmation and Godparents are required by the Church to be Confirmed as far as I know. I’m assuming there will be some sort of formal process to take place, especially with regard to not being a “Godfather” anymore as far as the Church is concerned, so this is what I was referring to as “technical difficulties.”
With regard to your atheism, as you point out, Occam’s Razor talks about being “more likely,” so I still don’t understand how you can know that there are no gods. Using Occam’s Razor you can only “know” that it is more likely there are no gods.
I believe you have misread the situation. To my knowledge nobody was forcing their religious views on you, they were simply wanting you to take part in a family outing. Everybody is entitled to their on views rightly or wrongly on how the world began and how it continues to run to day. Accepting others people’s views is where the world is sadly lacking, this in my view is the only way towards world peace but I don’t believe it will ever happen. As for attending church with the family this is a small sacrifice to make for a family to run smoothly. I am not a catholic but do not have any qualms about attending a Catholic church service with Tarisha or your Mum & Dad when I visit Napier. I hope you will consider these thoughts before driving a wedge between you & your family.
Regards
Brad
Hi Brad, thanks for the considered response. Always appreciated.
I would like to think that no one in my family would consider differing views on religion to be grounds for driving a wedge between each other and were this not the case it would only reinforce my conclusion that such religious faith is best rejected in the strongest possible terms.
Wanting me to take part in a family outing would have naturally been a factor (on my part too, hence I took the option to meet up for coffee afterwards) but the major driver was and is religion. This, I would have thought, is self-evident and there’s certainly no effort to hide it (we’ve debated it on numerous occasions), which is not surprising when you consider my punishment for not having the sense to accept Jesus Christ as the God Almighty is Eternal Damnation at the hand of somebody’s Boogie Monster.
You’re right that keeping up appearances by going to Church may be a small sacrifice but that assumes the only sacrifice is my own, which it’s not. The biggest driver for me is those growing up around me, my nieces and nephews. By renouncing Christianity I think one can help break the cycle that keeps faith in bizarre anti-human fairy tales alive, in the process mitigating much of the personal and societal damage it causes. My renunciation would give those growing up around me an impetus to at least question at an early stage what they may be lead to believe.
Freedom of religion is considered by many to be a fundamental human right, and that includes freedom from religion. The principle of accepting other people’s views is elementary but you seem to turn it on its head. Not only am I to accept another person’s view but I’m to dispense with my own and carry out the other person’s view in contradiction to my own. In fact I do accept my Mother’s views on religion; I don’t intend to pressure her into renouncing Christianity, so it would be far more consistent on your part to argue that it would be a small sacrifice on the part of those who believe in the supernatural to accept my views and refrain from pressuring me into following their doctrine.
We stand at the possible precipice of WWIII, a gateway to hell on earth, and if the Middle East goes up in a mushroom cloud there are people in the highest levels of power who won’t see it so much as a tragedy but as biblical prophecy. I think it’s time to break the cycle.
Christiaan,
I happen to be a devote Christian. I was converted later in life and have had many struggles with my faith and, to an even greater extent, the espousings of the Church. However, I respect the fact that you have obviously put a lot of thought into your decision to renounce your Christian upbringings. Many people these days seem to cast of Christianity based on public opinions or uninformed prejudices. You, on the other hand, appear to have carefully considered your position.
I have found what (who) I am looking for in this life, and I sincerely hope you do as well.
Good fortunes,
Greg
I do not remember where I heard this or if it is true but the only way to revoke your Baptism or Confirmation was to put it in your last will and testament.
I have done this because I do not wish to have any of that superstition or mumbo-jumbo at my services.
My sister was very upset with me (for a while) but she got over it.
As for the godfather part for your nieces and nephews, isn’t there some legal guardian papers that have nothing to do with the church?
Atheist Scott
I forget the number of the canon law that prescribes it, but you can leave the (Roman Catholic) church by formally renouncing your affiliation to the church and having that renunciation received by an appropriate church leader (like a parish priest or bishop).
If I were you, I’d write a letter and ask for a response or make an appointment to speak with a priest…Then Ta-Da! You are no longer Catholic. Sorry about the indelible mark stuff though, nothing we can do about that, but if you don’t believe in it, does it really matter?
Though I find it a bit offensive and misleading (and I’m a liberal feminist), here’s a sight by atheists that talks about renouncing the church: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/excommunication.htm
In terms of your God-Parenting, you might suggest to your brother or sister that they find another co-Godparent to do the “spiritual leadership/conversation” part of the job. The point of a Godparent is to give children another person (besides their parents) to talk to about faith and religion. You could still do that for your Godchild, but if the child is catholic, it would be helpful if the person s/he talked to had some current grounding in the faith she was a member of.
Good Luck! I hope you find something that works for you!
-dc
hope this isn’t to late.
I’ve been thinking about the same things Christiaan. I actually found your page while trying to do the same thing.
I’m considering the following
1. Get my baptism and confirmation certificates, post them to your local bishop or to the vatican. Explain that it was a mistake I joined their club, someone else did it on my behalf and I would like to leave and be removed from their mailing list
2. Get excommunicated for extreme blasphemy or heresy. Perhaps I’ll say something like the bible clearly indicates or states that the pope blows donkey dick, (I’m sure I’ll find a reference to make it stick) or that some porn starlett is actually the 2nd comming of jesus etc. I’d even desacrate a communion biscuit and post it to them. Im sure there are many ways. I might just write to the vatican and ask, or tell them
3. This is a more moderate option. I consider that I was never asked if I wanted to join this club (baptism) and I was tricked into taking out the extended membership (confirmation). Therefore, it is not really their decision to release me, but my decision to leave. I no longer consider myself a catholic or christian of any sort. I am probably both agnositc and athiest in that I neither know nor believe (much the same as my position on santa, easter bunny etc), but I digress.
4. for somethging symbollic there is always an un-baptism and un-confirmation ceramony/party. Get some friends round, renounce it with witness, have some beers and a BBQ, and use the certificates to light the fire and have some blasphemy burgers.
Remember, you never really asked to join and you dont need the permission of a hitler-youther in a pointy hat to leave.
may Darwin be with you my friend
Aidan
You may be interested in this chapter of “How to become a Hindu”. This particular Hindu group require formal severance from previous religions, and the end of the chapter includes some formal severance letters received. (not all Hindu groups require this, in fact this group is possibly unique)
You are probably only interested in section 3 of this chapter together with the letters at the end, which includes some from the Catholic church (other sections are about taking up the Hindu religion).
I would view this as the best way of revoking a baptism and confirmation.
Thanks Chris, much appreciated.